Home What's New Message Board
BigPumpkins.com
Select Destination Site Search

Message Board

 
AG Genetics and Breeding

Subject:  propagation and breeding to reach 3000

AG Genetics and Breeding      Return to Board List

From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Madman Marc!

Colo Springs CO

If you are a grower who were lucky enough to have a genetic that did incredible things this year, consider keeping it alive ! I encourage anyone who can, to keep a propagated plant cutting alive this winter for several reasons. You will have the benefit of using it as a pollinator next year at a time you may not have male flowers ready when you need. You can isolate a genetic at light speed by growing out its seed and crossing a selfed genetic with itself again and again. You can grow the clone plant just like any other , with results the same as the previous season. I plan the next season I grow to prove that to those skeptical growers who doubt that. Whatever your reason, if you want to isolate or use a specific genetic which has impressed you doing the season, NOW is the time to get it started ! You can worry later about powdery/bugs/or where to grow it. Right now, you need to get a window pot/ fill it with good potting soil, and bury your best vine[s]. Leave a couple leaves after the pot, with 2 good shoots ready to grow, and tip the plant off. Wait about 2 weeks and simply cut it away from the host plant. Thats it. Ill fill you in what options you have over the winter later. For now, thats all I can say to encourage those with the best plants to not let them die off ! Anyone with record pumpkins, you owe it to yourself and the world to utilize your special seed which may one day produce the first 3,000 pounder!

9/29/2019 12:56:14 PM

Madman Marc!

Colo Springs CO

Ill put myself out on a limb and predict we will not break 3,000 until there are growers who grow out a genetic line which differs from what everyone is growing today. All of what is out there has become 2145 or 2009 [and both combined, which yes the 2145 has 2009 in it]offspring. What we have all been doing could be best described as line breeding these genetics. As we keep using and breeding these specific genetics, we will be able to isolate the best characteristics and the heavier genetics and end up having seeds which produce plants which exhibit similar traits out of all seeds that are planted. if grown in identical conditions, everyone would have plants similar to one another, where any seed that was grown would give pretty much the same result as any seed from that given pumpkin. This is what icould be considered a stable genetic line. It is my belief that unless growers begin isolating specific traits different from other plants, and create their own true breeding genetics, different from what everyone is growing, then 3,000 pounds may not be reached for many more years. The growers who created todays genetics got to this point by crossing plants which had the most diverse backgrounds from one another. This is what needs to be done now, and its getting more difficult to find those diverse genetics needed to create anything better than what is possible today. propagation is a means to isolate specific genetics quickly, as a person can grow a self pollinated seed and have its mother plant alive over the winter to be used as a pollinating plant when it is ready to pollinate.

9/29/2019 12:57:53 PM

Madman Marc!

Colo Springs CO

Those seeds could then be grown and pollinated with that original plant [its grandparent] and this process could be carried out until all seeds grew plants identical to the original plant. Only the plants which carried the original desired genetics would be grown, obviously, which wouldnt take as many generations of breeding as it would trying to find and grow seeds exhibiting traits of the original plant. If my theory is correct, it looks like I will be the one to prove what I believe needs to be done. I also need to prove out misconceptions about what cloned plants can do if they are used in competition for more than one season. they will develop a 'stump', they will grow exactly like the original plant used, and they are just as good to use as a seed plant. The only difference is you know what exactly the traits are that your growing and know exactly what to expect. When growing a seed, you cannot be so sure unless your growing a true breeding genetic line. It appears I have just gave myself a challenge. Anyone interested in anything Ive discussed should research themselves and get in contact with me if interested. I do encourage as many growers as possible to learn and practice propagation, even if just for fun during the winter.

9/29/2019 12:59:10 PM

ArvadaBoy

Midway, UT

I think a lot of interesting things could be done with this.

9/29/2019 5:02:47 PM

The Gridiot

10,000 BC Younger Dryas 2

I am inspired to try a plant from a cutting for the sake of learning but using seeds would be easier. It could be useful to breeding for beauty. I think the seeds for 3k are already out there I wont say which ones thats a different topic but yes please run a seed vs propogation comparison. Best seed you can find vs best propogation plant you can overwinter... Ask for bets on which will win?

9/30/2019 7:28:49 AM

719.5 Pounder

North Of The Border

How do you clone it? I am not familiar with the term

11/9/2019 7:43:23 AM

cojoe

Colorado

It could be called a cutting. You get rooting ,off the plant you want to preserve the genetics of, pot it and bring it inside. You get 100% genetic expression from a cutting in theory. The seed from that plant has more genetic variability.

12/1/2019 2:45:26 PM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

trying to find different genetics to 2145 and 2009 to cross are you hoping for hybrid vigour???

1/23/2020 4:48:50 AM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

let's see about how 'cloning' differs from 'cutting' a plant - i'm in a hurry, or i'd be more cordial---eg

1/23/2020 1:04:17 PM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

the reason i ask is with the gene pool we are sort of like line breeding in cattle if you cross two purebred lines over each other you get what we call an f1 which has got good hybrid vigour if you could find some pumpkin lines without 2009 or 2145 and cross them it would be interesting to cross them and see the results it might be a bit like when i think the 2009 and also one of beni miers was crossed into the squash line being different genetics the sizes increased

1/23/2020 8:49:36 PM

irischap

Guelph, Ontario

Dale, we have hybrid vigour now. Now many pumpkins are selfed. Data shows not much if any inbreeding depression with pumpkins/squash. An F1 is a cross of two unrelated genetic lines. But we do not have any genetic lines in AG. They are all basically related to each other.

1/24/2020 2:03:56 PM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

irischap i understand what your saying they are all from the same genus and we only have one species line so we cant produce an f1 i was only thinking along the lines of crossing seeds probably pre 2009 with different genes back in as the genes seem to be narrowing like a bottle neck and yes their still getting bigger and seedling variation will always be a factor

1/24/2020 2:53:02 PM

TruckinPunkin

Upper Strasburg, PA

Just about everything that can germinate today is some combination of 998/1231 Pukos, 1068 Wallace, & 1370 Rose, which are themselves combinations of 723/845 Bobier, 846 Calai, & 898 Knauss plus that 712 Kuhn plant that pollinated the 1370 Rose.

The most outside-the-box kind of thing that might still germinate would be some early 2000s seeds deriving from the 940 Mombert (1998), 705 Stelts, and 730 Stellpflug. Something like the 922.5 Emmons (705 Stelts x 940 Mombert) could be a good one to experiment with. Cross it with one of these 3rd generation 2145 progeny like the 2517 Haist and see what you get.

1/25/2020 6:22:40 AM

big moon

Bethlehem CT

dale it's good to hear from you. are you growing this year? I miss seeing your diary's, they demonstrated original and innovative growing techniques, not typically used by other growers.

1/25/2020 8:09:57 AM

big moon

Bethlehem CT

Hybrid vigor has always been an elusive topic on here. Kind of like finding bigfoot or maybe more like finding a Tasmanian tiger. There are some very smart people who believe it may exist, other very intelligent people will swear it does not apply to Ag's. The question becomes would it even help us at this point in terms of adding more pounds? We have selected purely for weight over the past 100 years. It has been a pretty darn impressive breeding program if you think about where we started from. I am sure over the years we have lost lots of genes that are related to stress resistance. i.e insect resistance, disease, resistance, heat tolerance, etc.

1/25/2020 8:22:41 AM

big moon

Bethlehem CT

Hybrid vigor will always be a tough one to prove with cucurbits. As it doesn't react in the same way corn does. With corn a line becomes weak and inbred within a few generations. This makes hybrid vigor very easy to see with corn f1 hybrids.
On a side note: Chris Kent essentially created a giant melon that should demonstrate hybrid vigor when he crossed the Jumbo Black Diamond with the Carolina Cross. I have been growing those crosses for a few years now and it is difficult to see differences between them and the CC. However... There could be benefits that may not even be seen visibly. For example It is commonly thought by melon growers that Interspecific squash is not a good root stock for melons because the vines usually collapse and die in late June, early July. So far I have not seen that problem occur with the hybrids on the squash rootstock.

1/25/2020 8:34:02 AM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

hi john(bigmoon) been watching your diares with the melons very interesting and yes its all about weight understandably in the ags and melons i noticd gourdzilla grew a 1791 werner and stated how well it performed in the heat 2018 and then it was repeated the following year again by a different grower in 2019 i have noticed some perform better in heat than others i had two plants this season one handled the heat better than the other so i would prefer to use is seed over the weight factor

1/25/2020 2:49:04 PM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

and yes john put 2 plants in and a backup in the middle lost one outside one started with a small greenhouse a month earlier this year( back keen to grow again) so vines ended up to close backup didnt get looked after as well as it should have concentrating on other two grew them out other outside one had rat chew hole in it close to maturity went 612kgs

1/25/2020 2:56:44 PM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

managed to get 84 days growing our hottest day was 38 degrees celcius they mature when the heat hits and never gave them enough water noticed very dry under plants when picking been a bad drought here up till now the seed was 1832 midthun and weighed 676kgs with drought low humidity mildew stil bad but less other diseases have to grow on mulch as heat off ground makes them flag and burns tips out on hot day lost main runners on both plants

1/25/2020 3:05:44 PM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

i am fortunate we get sea breezes which keep us cooler here than other growers 30 kms inland is a total different story john will try and put some pics in a diary later when one of my kids are here not real pc handy

1/25/2020 3:17:59 PM

irischap

Guelph, Ontario

Inbreeding depression occurs when you have trapped a deleterious gene in your line. And hybrid vigour is when you cross two lines, each with a trapped deleterious ( read sub optimal) so F1 has neither of these genes.

With they type of individual breeding we do with AG, we are making selection each generation of the best of the best. So optimal genetics is being selected each year. Nothing to be gained by breeding back to less optimal earlier pumpkins, as no beneficial gene to add to the pool, that is not already there.

To get a gene, or gene interaction , not already present, you need to breed back to an unrelated squash line ( the AG are really squash) and then grow out many hundreds of F1, and self, and select best 20 or so, and then grow out a hundred or so. Keep going for about 10-20 generations.

Just not feasible, or practical.

In terms of scale, what is happening now (breeding largest to largest) is very likely the best breeding program possible.

This coming from a plant breeder with lots of genetic knowledge.

1/25/2020 5:59:05 PM

irischap

Guelph, Ontario

With the sheer number of seeds being grown each year, you have a massive breeding program (summing up all the people growing AG) that cannot be matched by any breeding program by one grower.

Each year the best get selected for further growing, with many combinations.

So we are gradually selecting optimum genetics.

1/25/2020 6:02:19 PM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

irischap you obviously know what your talking about whats your opinion will growers make it to 3000in the next two or three years and one more question do you think it silly in australia to go for seeds that handle heat over weight or cross them with weight to try to develop lines to suit climate

1/26/2020 5:12:23 AM

irischap

Guelph, Ontario

The maximum weight is a combination of genetics and cultivation. I suspect we are getting close to maximum of genetics. Physics plays a crucial weight limit.

There was good article on the physics a couple of years ago.

If we get to 3,000 lbs it will most likely be more then a couple of years down the road.

As we progress with breeding, the amount of genetic variability decreases, as the less favorable genes get removed from current pool. So I very much doubt if there is many genes present which make any specific seed more viable in one climate versus another.

1/28/2020 11:46:42 PM

irischap

Guelph, Ontario

Genetic engineering will be the most likely route for major improvement in genes. It is now within reach to do in a home lab, with not that high a cost. Biggest problem is figuring out what gene would be useful.

A lot of good work is now going on in Cucurbita and some good starts to mapping.

1/28/2020 11:52:20 PM

cjb

Plymouth, MN

Genetic engineering isn't trivial and I have a hard time seeing how it'd be effectively utilized for size in AGs. It'd be easy to verify whether a plant you engineer has a given modification. It'd be a whole lot more challenging to determine whether your modification has a meaningful effect on pumpkin growth. So much effort goes into each plant and fruit, few growers can grow their pumpkins near the current WR as it is.

Now, if someone wanted to engineer a flourescent pumpkin for shits and giggles (and bad-ass jack-o-lanterns), that'd be totally doable.

1/29/2020 4:20:22 PM

irischap

Guelph, Ontario

The fluorescent one would be a piece of cake. All the protocols are in place and genes etc. Made a florescent bacteria in one of the teaching labs.

Wrote my name with it in a culture dish. I think I have the photo somewhere on my Facebook page.


There are lots of do it yourself home genetic labs. If you have the training, you can do it.

1/29/2020 11:13:54 PM

irischap

Guelph, Ontario

Here is link to photos of some fluorescent animals produced by GMO

https://www.google.com/search?q=fluorescent+gmo+animals&client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ACYBGNTmN52Nl7lRl0hV7jzIIN3TDp7xYw:1580357675636&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwii_P6Ou6rnAhVAB50JHXB7AL4Q_AUoAXoECA4QAw&biw=1704&bih=966

1/29/2020 11:16:26 PM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

sounds like we could talk about genetic engineering all day the real engineers are the growers who put the most time and effort in producing the biggest pumpkins and so everyone wants their seeds i still think if you live in a warm climate and a plant handles the heat better than the one beside it you should use that advantage in crosses look at gourdzillas 2018 diary

2/1/2020 5:25:48 PM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

the following year another grower grew the same seed or progeny from gourdzillas cant remember growers name to check and found the plant performed very well in the heat again growing i think a new record for the area and mentioned in the diary how well it handled the heat a few times if anyone knows the diary name could they put it up i would like to read their diary again gettin some seed would be good

2/1/2020 5:32:24 PM

Tom K

Massachusetts

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=306233

2/1/2020 6:48:49 PM

irischap

Guelph, Ontario

Dale In everyone's patch, where you grow mote then one plant, there is one that does better then others. Basically, it is better genetics, not connected with climate. That is the way it goes.

And better plants will produce better offspring.

2/1/2020 10:05:59 PM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

thanks tom k appreciate it and irischap not sure i agree with everything you say but appreciate your input thanks dale

2/2/2020 5:25:53 AM

irischap

Guelph, Ontario

Dale, there are many different factors involved in why one pumpkin seed from a cross (or from different croses) do better in your patch. If you are treating them the same, most of it will be genetics. Yes , there will be environment ( soil, temperature, fertilizer, watering etc etc ) times genetic variations. To pick out one particular factor as being key, is just a guess.

The AG are grown in all sorts of environments, from very hot to very cold, including Alaska. Most under cover will have extremes of heat.

Any adaptation to something like temperature in a climate is always a possibility. Many crops have been bred for that. Soybeenans is a good example with specific cultivars grown in particular ag zones. But it is not a one generation thing. It is multiple generations, and involves selfing and sib crossing and selection. Takes many generations.

So if you get a line that does well for you, it may be one of many different things. But I willing to bet , that any seed from what you think is a temperature adaptation will grow well in another, colder climate.

AG seeds get selected in many different climate and soil conditions. The one consistent selection criteria is size. Not size and climate.

2/9/2020 8:56:27 AM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

irischap, just so you know, those 275 Gerry seeds i sent you last year i think it was grew for me a medium-sized-but-coulda-been-a-lot-bigger peachy-orangish-colored fruit, but with a VERY long stem - it did not hint at becoming white at any point, but a long stem IS always kinda neat, lol--no NEED to even reply here - eg

2/9/2020 10:31:51 AM

Madman Marc!

Colo Springs CO

These are all great points and yes, the best of the genetics have been selected over time. However, these plants not so long ago came from several unknown, uncontrolled pollinations. Dill X Gancarz crosses combined and recombined the genetic expressions we have now in today's modern seeds. Those growers who were growing 30 years ago understand that there were several differences back then that, when crossed with other different plants, produced larger fruit. There have been many lost genetic traits which we could be aiming to bring out that we just don't see anymore. Long stems, different leaf inter node spacing, leaf size, insane wall thickness, disease resistance, and many more traits were noticed and bred to create today's seeds. The problem is a lot of the good traits they once expressed have been "lost". Genetic recombination of these recessive genetics are required to bring out some of the traits. This requires growers to grow more of their own seeds and creating their own isolated strains. These eventually can be crossed with someone else's isolated genetics and some vigor would be expressed.

2/10/2020 1:49:22 AM

Madman Marc!

Colo Springs CO

What we are basically doing currently is line breeding, or inbreeding basically two seed lines. One is the 2145 and the other the 2009, with the 2009 already a part of the 2145 genetics. No longer does a seed produce fruit much larger than the seed it came from, they are the same weights or smaller. We are on the path of growing plants and seeds which all grow the same similar plants for everyone. Until we begin growing and selfing plants which may exhibit recessive traits different from one another, we should not expect any new genetic expressions, much less any sort of hybrid vigor. Any hybrid vigor which may happen doesn't necessarily mean larger or heavier fruit. There are other results we should hope to achieve and aim for, like long stem fruit. Traits like that may be what gets us over 3,000 pounds, or perhaps we do see heavier fruits. Whatever the case, we position ourselves much better in the future if we begin growing more of our own seeds and bring out these recessive genetics and isolate them.

2/10/2020 1:49:59 AM

Madman Marc!

Colo Springs CO

This is the real reason propagation can get us to these goals quicker. Whatever we grow could be crossed back with the exact same original plant, over several generations, I would think this could isolate genetics quicker than waiting 7 or 8 years to develop a true breeding seed line. The one thing required is a plant which kicks serious ass, perhaps a personal best type plant. It can then grow seed which would be grown the next season. The same plant then could be kept alive all winter. Then the next season the seeds it produced are grown and then pollinated with the plant which had been kept alive during the winter. This isolates the genetic faster than a sibb or self cross would.

2/10/2020 1:50:31 AM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

irischap me and another grower not far from me grew seeds out of the same pumpkin both plants really didnt handle the heat as well as our other plants i am just asking if a grower who grows his own seed every year as a lot do and yes they introduce outside or other growers plants to cross with but still maintain their line say 50 percent of the time couldnt they be growing lines that do have different tolerances like heat disease resistance more vigour etc than another grower doing the same thing somwhere else without knowing it

2/10/2020 4:38:46 AM

dale

Australia eastcoastcitrus@hotmail.com

the plant that didnt handle the heat still grew to 612 kgs but matured earlier where the other grew for more days without being stressed through the hotter period of the day so obviously did better but had a dill ring in it wondering if the dill ring is a genetic trait or from other causes???

2/10/2020 5:21:04 AM

Total Posts: 40 Current Server Time: 5/16/2022 5:50:36 PM
 
AG Genetics and Breeding      Return to Board List
  Note: Sign In is required to reply or post messages.
 
Top of Page

Questions or comments? Send mail to Ken AT bigpumpkins.com.
Copyright © 1999-2022 BigPumpkins.com. All rights reserved.