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AG Genetics and Breeding

Subject:  Selfed sreds

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Vineman

Eugene,OR

Many of the seeds from the largest pumpkins grown this past year are selfed. What are your thoughts on selfed seeds from huge pumpkins? Does it double the chance of expressing the genes with the traits which made its parent fruit so huge? Or does the lack of genetic diversity reduce the chance that they will produce great offspring?

12/18/2020 5:40:16 PM

Pumpkinman Dan

Urbandale, Iowa

Case in point: 1725 Harp :-)

12/18/2020 7:00:11 PM

spudder

I guess if you lock in the proper traits that is good but until it is planted one will never know.
so few of the seeds are selfed compared to crossed can there be a good comparison to which is better?

12/18/2020 7:21:42 PM

The Gridiot

10,000 BC Younger Dryas 2

I think traditional hybridization applies to pumpkins. Selfing helps isolate good genetics but the best results may come from a hybrid created by crossing the selfed pumpkins. I think a selfed pumpkin x selfed pumpkin (each from distinct lineages) has the best odds of creating something special.

12/18/2020 10:20:39 PM

VTWilbur

Springfield, VT

Selfing a plant with consolidate the genetic traits either good or bad in the next generation. Some of the squash lines have been selfed a lot and some of the offspring have picked up bad traits. An example is male sterility

12/18/2020 10:30:07 PM

Bubba Presley

Muddy Waters

Its a roll of the dice either way

12/19/2020 8:21:52 AM

97pounder!

Centennial Colorado

I think once you have a trait you like or simply have more male flowers, self is the best. I wanted my 817 to be orange and more of a long pumpkin, so I selfed it. I wanted my 485 to have a better shape than my 511, so I crossed it. 7 of the top 10 were selfed, so I don't think it is just coincidence.

12/19/2020 10:45:33 AM

cojoe

Colorado

I like the fact that a lot of selfing was done. It might bring out a bad unknown trait that is recessive so I like to let others prove that new cross.Also makes me wonder if what pollen used does affect growth of the pumpkin.


12/19/2020 1:05:22 PM

VTJohn

Jericho Vermont

For orange, we have 2 selfed crosses that have done very well. Our 907 (1059 x self) has grown many beautiful orange pumpkins and over a handful of HD winners. Our 1215 is our 1297.5 selfed and it grew 2 HD winners out of 5 seeds grown. I think with all crosses it is lucky to have more of the desirable characteristics to carry on to the next generations and feel the odds might be a little better with a selfed seed as there must be less variables. But at some point selfs will need to be introduced to other genetics along the way.

12/20/2020 9:20:48 AM

Rmen

valtierra/spain

I have been growing pollinators in BIGS Pots for 2 years. With this I am able to grow 5 or 6 pollinators, or maybe in 2021 more ... I do not give these pollinators any fungicide or insecticide treatment, and I only fertilize them with algae, and with marijuana flowering fertilizers, to get incredible flowers full of pollen. Last year the 2469 pollinator I did so. I check the female flowers that come out of these pollinators, and I check the flowers that have more skin, the ones that will be heavier, and I pollinate with them. I think it's for the best, and you can make sibb crosses if you want. This year I also wanted to do the same, but when I saw the female flowers of the secondaries of my 2183 plant, which were incredible, I decided to do self, because I knew it would be a heavy pumpkin, and pollinated with the same flowers, I could be lucky to get purified a little that line. The important thing for the line to be as identical as possible is to pollinate with several male flowers, not one or two ... if they can be with 7 or 8 flowers, better. So there is more diversity of pollen, and you get more purify the line. I know that self-crossovers sometimes don't work out, but other times they work. I'll bet on that seed, 2552, I'll have to give it a try, I have a lot of faith in it.

12/20/2020 12:40:58 PM

spudder

Now that is a new idea to me and really deep thinking.

12/20/2020 2:39:48 PM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

my only contribution is that it would not surprise me to find that there is a finite number of seeds in a given pumpkin at birth to be pollinated, but yes, the more of them that GET pollinated the better and the unused pollen grains will be simply extra. like the # of people at a concert - there won't necessarily be a 'better' concert, but more people will be able to talk about it the next day. eg

12/20/2020 5:20:22 PM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

It is like the Lottery - there is only ONE set of numbers in EXACTLY the right order that is the winner. There may be several people that get the right combination and the winnings get split amongst them (like the top 10 that have the highest weights or most-dramatic color from any particular seed will slightly share in the top 10 notoriety of it); ONCE a seed is in the limelight because it is all of the above, that is its 'moment' - it is the seed to be had, right NOW, today; By any pollination whatsoever of its progeny, we are changing THAT seed's genetic information in the next generation and STATISTICALLY whether or not it was a good thing or not requires hundreds of those seeds to be planted under identical circumstances across the board in a field trial and compared to the mother seed's field trial results if there was one, just like students in a final exam.

Yes, WE have PumpkinFanatic, thank GOD!

I do feel that self-pollination limits the # of possible combinations of the genetic arrangements, but NOT by any MORE than would be the result from a closed or open pollination otherwise - A plus B will still equal C in the case of AGs, if A=pollen and B=fruit and C=progeny's seeds as the result to be tried subsequently.
In other and better words, if a seed is a must-have, then have it and grow it to the best of your ability, and if a result from all of the above is better in any way, then one's way of having a knack for it, and a lot of luck, had a LOT to do with it. I look forward to any others' thoughts on these, my thoughts about it presently. - eric g

PS---it has been discussed before that AGs do not have 'Inbred Depression' that may be a cause for other varieties of any plants to suffer from having been inbred, but I've not looked at any of that in a very long time. eg

1/17/2021 4:55:26 PM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

From the original question, about selfing:
"Does it double the chance of expressing the genes with the traits which made its parent fruit so huge?"
Hmmm...THAT is a good question! eg

1/17/2021 5:26:32 PM

cjb

Plymouth, MN

Every seed is a unique genetic combination of its parents. The more different the two parents are, the more possible combinations of genes are and the more diverse the seeds are. The more related the parents are the less variety there is in the offspring.

If the seed you start from comes from diverse parents, a single generation of selfing is not going to fix all of its traits. You can reasonably expect less seed to seed variability than a cross. The more generations you self seeds, the more traits are going to be locked in.

1/17/2021 10:58:15 PM

Total Posts: 15 Current Server Time: 5/16/2022 5:58:27 PM
 
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