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Subject:  Is to much of a good thing bad?

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Scott_B

Columbia, Kentucky

I had my seed line up set,but then I look and my seeds genetics and my concerns is I'm adding back too much of 2145 mcmullen gentics back into each other. I try and cross most years to produce a better seed or to combine like traits from seeds or add heavy to big. But I have 4 seeds with one or multiple generations of 2145. Is this a bad thing if they have been producing pumpkins over 1800,1900,2000+ pounds?

3/25/2021 10:03:09 AM

cojoe

Colorado

It could be argued good or bad. I think its good. The 2145 parents were very different and it will take a few generation of sibs before its locked into one trait genetically speaking.

3/25/2021 11:27:19 AM

TruckinPunkin

Upper Strasburg, PA

Some of the more inbred lines seem to regress after a while. You can look back over the years and see that with highly inbred descendents of the 723 Bobier and 2009 Wallace. That’s why I like to do really far out crosses and try to revive lost lines once in a while... got some extra genetic diversity in the freezer just in case. I have 1469 Checkon crossed with a Nic Welty squash from 1997 for example. I’m going to grow that out next year before the germination rate falls off a cliff. Thinking about doing a 1556 Werner x 1625 Gantner this year.

3/25/2021 1:08:12 PM

big moon

Bethlehem CT

In my opinion the only reason we are where we are with the current weights is from selfing. We have yet to see any major drawbacks from honing in on a single genetic line to bring about heavier weights. People could argue things like less disease tolerance, heat tolerance etc. But it is just speculation. Most of those factors growersn try to manage through proper cultural techniques.

3/25/2021 1:16:19 PM

TruckinPunkin

Upper Strasburg, PA

“The only reason”.... not so sure about that. Is there any example of a world record grown from a self pollinated seed other than the 2009 Wallace grown from the 1725 Harp? The 2145 McMullen is a cross of two selfed seeds, but those two (1756 & 1625) were only selfed for one generation. There is a ton of cross pollination in that pedigree when you look past the 1756 & 1625. There aren’t many examples of multiple generations of self pollinating being very successful and certainly not more successful than crosses or sibling pollinations.

3/25/2021 4:24:09 PM

big moon

Bethlehem CT

What are the genetics going back on the current world record? I was under the assumption that the genetic backgrounds are all quite similar. Mostly evolving from the 1725 which led to the 2009.

3/25/2021 7:49:32 PM

big moon

Bethlehem CT

I see the 1068 Wallace in '03 which led to the 1385 Jutras in 07, which produced the 1725, which produced the 2009 which produced the 2145. Are there any other genes that don't go back to the 1068?

3/25/2021 7:55:09 PM

TruckinPunkin

Upper Strasburg, PA

There are 5 pumpkins that have been used to make up just about 100% of the contemporary AG gene pool: 898 Knauss, 846 Calai, 845 Bobier, 723 Bobier, and 712 Kuhn. Not many examples of multiple generations of self pollinations working out though. Heavily planted seeds like the 2323 Meier and 2517 Haist that were top pumpkins and were very inbred have been pretty underwhelming. They certainly have worthwhile genetic material, but they aren’t going to produce any records themselves.

3/25/2021 10:37:27 PM

it is what it is

Streator ,Illinois

Scott it sounds like you chose your line up because you have the confidence in the seeds to give yourself the best opportunity to grow a new personal best or 2000+ pumpkin. looking at genetics on paper will always have oneself second guessing. Best of luck!
Gene

3/25/2021 10:39:52 PM

don young

follow the 1068 another way.1662 from 1068 pollinter was 1207 young- take 1385 jutras and cross with 1207 that makes 2 largest from 2007 pollinaters cross 1288 Wallace this cross grew my 1658 that won half moon bay. my 1622 from same year was from 1207, cross with another 1207x 1385 -it goes another level gary miller grew 1658 1622crossed made 1409 miller. ron Wallace 2009 lb record was 1385 x 1409

3/25/2021 11:08:45 PM

don young

wallace2009 was 1725 x 1409

3/25/2021 11:09:54 PM

Scott_B

Columbia, Kentucky

Thank you to all and Gene thank you I'll will lock the seeds in and grow them with the confidence that they can grow the next WR.

3/26/2021 12:49:09 AM

TruckinPunkin

Upper Strasburg, PA

That 1288 Wallace is a great example of what was going on in the mid 2000s. The grandparents are the two 1068 Wallace plants, the 998 Pukos that grew the Jutras world record, and the 1207 Young, which was one of the best 1370 Rose offspring. Let’s break that down:

1068 Wallace = 845 Bobier x 898 Knauss

____
1370 Rose = 1260 Weir x 712 Kuhn
1260 Weir = 845 Bobier x 846 Calai

____
998 Pukos = 1420 LaRue x 1446 Eaton
1420 LaRue = 1104 Hester x 1180 Daletas
1104 Hester = 898 Knauss x 845 Bobier
1180 Daletas = 898 Knauss x 846 Calai

1446 Eaton = 842 Eaton x 1301 Eaton
842 Eaton = 846 Calai x 723 Bobier
1301 Eaton = 842 Eaton x 1236 Eaton
The 1236 was the reverse cross of the 842.

Definitely a lot of cousin-f*ing happening there. That seems to work for giant pumpkins.

3/26/2021 1:20:28 AM

big moon

Bethlehem CT

Thanks for everyones input. It is crazy to see how far we have come and what genetics have brought us to this point. It isn't selfing alone that got us here, but I don't believe we would be where we are if the 1725 had never happened. Prior to the 1725 I was prejudiced about selfed seeds. I changed my thinking a little bit after seeing what the 1725 produced on a consistent basis. I am definitely no expert on genetics, many of you guys could spin me in circles with the amount of genetic knowledge you posses.

3/26/2021 8:52:25 AM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

i think everyone should grow seeds in any given year that are up and coming (every predecessor is <= lbs. of the present), such AS the 1756 H/J and are SELFED any number of times and and hit them with ANY other seed that is not or even IS selfed to begin with, as in the case with the 2145 McMullen; This is essentially what happened with the 845 Bobier '00 and even there, the 935 Lloyd was not a self but a distant SIB in that the parents crossed were from two different plants even if from the same (cross-wise) seed stock.
In any event, judging by the recordable fact of a seed and its descendants producing greater weights, to me, this indicates that the genes for a HEAVY pumpkin are present and once they are REINFORCED by male genetics that are completely out of the orange (not blue, lol) the results the next year will at least be votable as a very good thing or a 'nyeaaahhh, so what?'... So, if you have any seeds of this nature and you were gonna plant them anyway, OR if you have a cross that you've been MEANING to make, y'all, ahem, names unnamed, ahem, then, why not THIS year? So, we can get started, eh? Good luck---eg

3/28/2021 9:21:54 AM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

if anyone knows of a seed that is itself a self(s) and has or is only pollinated by selfs as well, that'd be great to have a line in on here as well---NOW's the time to look through our seed books! eg

3/28/2021 9:28:02 AM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

I love having the last word - HAH!!! eg

2/20/2022 6:20:03 PM

The Gridiot

10,000 BC Younger Dryas 2

I was happy with the selfed mother x selfed father plant I grew. It was one of the most vigorous I have grown.

It was two generations of selfed kins that were then crossed. It seemed to have a hybridizing effect. But it helped the plant vigor a lot and the pumpkin size, not so much.

2/20/2022 9:14:15 PM

The Gridiot

10,000 BC Younger Dryas 2

Look on pumpkinfanatic for the 464.5 Clayton.

I was looking to lock in the color so the pumpkin size didn't matter much to me, but I did want the biggest genetics I could find that were locked in on orange. This was prior to the stellar 2350 Gienger.

2/20/2022 9:25:28 PM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

Okay, so, I'll have to fire up the kitchen computer and see what was grown off of the 2350, if I can find my sunglasses, too! ...and the 464.5 Clay-Meister, lol---eric g
PS---I have a 113 in my living room on the nightstand - tough little bugger!
'Afraid' to sleep there, though - AGs might've heard what happens with all the 'carving'! eg

2/20/2022 10:43:47 PM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

Umm, got carried away looking at the 717 Connolly and Mr. Wolf's other orange beauties. I honestly need a movie and a few beers after that! Thank God I have tomorrow off, lol---eg

2/21/2022 12:45:01 AM

Total Posts: 21 Current Server Time: 5/16/2022 7:02:11 PM
 
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