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Subject:  Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance

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kfrink25

Beverly

Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance

-basically means DNA of any living thing
Can be changed over time, due to environmental conditions and Adaptation changes to DNA.

- If the same conditions keep happening in each generation it is more likely for the DNA to adapt by making changes to the new Norm.

Example: Picking the largest fruit each year or picking a certain color fruit from a particular seed each year, the next year or is grown it is more likely to grow that particular size or larger or that particular color or a new one...

Adaptation.

10/28/2019 7:22:13 PM

Pumpking

Germany

Oh, thought there would be a link to a literature reference. Anyway, here´s my view on the things you describe in your lines:

"-basically means DNA of any living thing
Can be changed over time, due to environmental conditions and Adaptation changes to DNA." >>> DNA definitely undergoes changes (mutation), due to environmental conditions, of course (stress, heat, radiation and other things, even the bunch of factors which we could call random shit happens). However, these changes do not happen in order to adapt to conditions. They simply happen. Thus, they produce a portfolio of new properties, which might allow better adaption to the current environmental conditions (and these organisms will then have a better chance to survive). Means, putting an organism under the influence of a particularly stressful environment certainly doesn´t induce the happening of those particular mutations which especially help with the adaption to this stressful environment. However, having random mutations happen in thousands of organisms, some of them will probably have beneficial new properties (thus being able to cope with the conditions much better) while other simply suffer the negative effects of other mutations.



12/12/2019 9:09:23 AM

Pumpking

Germany

"- If the same conditions keep happening in each generation it is more likely for the DNA to adapt by making changes to the new Norm." >>> Having the same stressful conditions over longer periods of time will thus help with the selection of those organisms which, thanks to random mutation, got some new abilities.

If adaption would work in a way of deliberate adaption, one could try to grow a seed under horrible condition, and seeds from this plant under horrible conditions again and again...growing always one plant only, not making any grower decisions as to selection. Then, after some years, you should have a plant/seed which underwent a deliberate adaption. I doubt that would happen. Adaption (by mutation) is still the random thing, adaption by selection (by deliberately selecting the organims with the randomly "seeming adapted" traits) is the things that´s making the decision.

12/12/2019 9:09:26 AM

Iowegian

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Doesn't the geologic record indicate that big changes in DNR can happen quickly in response to catastrophic environmental changes like asteroid strikes or super volcano eruptions? Those environmental disasters happen fast, and only the species with adaptable DNA survive. The rest face mass extinction. Maybe after several environmental disasters, the remaining species will have DNA that can adapt. Wouldn't that make those species better able to change through slower natural selection processes?

12/12/2019 11:42:45 AM

Pumpking

Germany

Some big changes happen all the time, but under circumstances/conditions when there is no clear advantage of the new traits they might turn out inferior to the currently existing mix, and the catastrophic environmental changes suddenly create conditions where the new traits might be superior by far. Hence, the catastrophy doesn´t ask for adaption and quick response, it asks for who is adapted and will be in the boat (immediately). Adaption of DNA in a deliberate manner would require some highly intelligent conversation rather than one-way translation (in terms of proteins). Catastrophy happens...someone needs to tell what is needed to adapt...someone needs to find out which new organs/properties will be needed...someone needs to translate these properties into the new set of proteins required...someone needs to translate these proteins into a new DNA code, and place it on a suitable set of chromosomes without causing any errors. Sounds difficult to me, and less likely than the new conditions which suddenly come into action an select groups which haven´t been the chosen ones at an earlier stage.

12/12/2019 12:14:16 PM

Pumpking

Germany

Grass was growing on the fields, suddenly grass is gone and leaves (on tall trees) will be the remaining food. Would that mean that suddenly all grass eaters will grow longer necks, or will those survive who are a bit taller and reach the new food source (even though for eating grass their longer necks and legs had been a hindrance and they were slower grass eaters than their smaller sisters and brothers...who had, for reasons of easier food uptake, a chance of being stronger and to mate in times when plenty of grass used to be available, while the tall and slim ones didn´t mean a benefit for the gene pool?

12/12/2019 12:20:47 PM

Pumpking

Germany

In order to proove the concept of deliberate genetic adaption to the new circumstances created by a sudden event, one would have to proove that the new superior traits had been completely absent before (rather than having been traits of a minority group, which hasn´t had any advantages under the previous conditions). If only 0.01% of the organisms of a species had (by random mutation) the new beneficial traits available at the time of the catastrophic event, they might suddenly have a chance to multiply pretty fast within a couple of years or decades. Within short time (on a geological measure) a new species would develop, which might have been supressed to extinction if the catastrophy and the new conditions wouldn´t have happened. It should be hard to find 100% evidence that the new genetic traits had been completely absent from the gene pool prior to the catastrophic event (in my opinion).

12/12/2019 12:27:45 PM

Pumpking

Germany

...oh, and I seem to belong to the sub-species which is writing "to prove" with double-o. Time needs to tell when this will become the desired trait ;)

12/12/2019 12:29:17 PM

Marv.

On top of Brush Mountain, Pa.

Pumpking, I have had my tomato seeds tucked away in an MRI machine for a month. They get radiated every day, What do you think that will do to the seeds? Will they even germinate?

12/12/2019 7:38:28 PM

daveigiantguy

North Pole,Alaska

Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance does not mean you are changing DNA from one generation to another. Basically it is a theory, as yet not fully accepted, that changes in gene expression ( which happen all the time, with or without environmental stresses) can be passed on to successive generations. The gene itself doesn't change.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/03/190320102114.htm

12/12/2019 9:26:30 PM

daveigiantguy

North Pole,Alaska

Pumpking is correct. Genetic mutations must already be in place 99.999999999999999% of the time when a catastrophe happens. Roughly 98.8% of our genome does NOT code for protiens- it's "junk" DNA sequencing. Mistakes happen during cell division. Human cells have been dividing millions of years. The average human cell will divide 50-70 times in your lifetime. All those mistakes don't always just go away. They often hang around like trash that doesn't get tossed. Some only require a trigger for expression.

12/12/2019 9:36:28 PM

daveigiantguy

North Pole,Alaska

In London, before the industrial revolution, the peppered moth was predominately white, with a very few black moths ( like albinos today).When smoke and soot from burning coal covered everything with a black soot, the white moths were easily seen by predators. The survival rate of the black moths increased, and black became the dominant color. In 2009 there was an article in London joyfully announcing the return of the white peppered moth in parts of London, due to a cleaner environment. Survival rates alone dictated which existing genetic expression would dominate.

12/12/2019 9:43:25 PM

Pumpking

Germany

Hi Marv,
I would guess your tomato seeds should germinate nicely and produce plants without any significantly higher percentage in outliers (better or weaker plants in terms of genetics). In an MRI you have to consider two different kinds of impact on the seeds, which are magnetic field and MHz electromagnetic waves. They certainly won´t cause mutations, because for mutations (chemical bond cleavage, molecular rearrangements) rather high quantum energies are required. The magnetic field is constant (whereas changing magnetic fields would be capable of inducing electric currents). The dangerous thing about the magnetic field (the reason why people wearing pacemakers or carrying larger amounts of metal inside their body) should stay away from magnetic field is, their motion inside the magnetic field (which is inhomogeneous in the area where they actually move) can induce electric currents in their metal parts and, for example in case of pacemakers, the magnetic field might disturb/destroy electronic building blocks. Hence, no risk for the seeds, I would say. The MHz frequencies, however, are some kind of energy fired onto the seeds. The quantum energy is pretty low, not sufficient for inducing bond cleavage (and mutations as a consequence).

12/13/2019 2:20:34 AM

Pumpking

Germany

Having a look at the electromagnetic spectrum, you will find the greatest risk for mutations with gamma rays and X-rays, lower risk with UV, and then in visible light the risk is pretty much gone. Then we lower the quantum energy further, infrared won´t cleave any bonds, it merely induces vibrations of bonds. Further down the quantum energy scale we reach microwaves / radiowaves, which are merely capable of inducing dipole rotations (without the need of deforming any chemical bonds) and the weakest kind of electronic excitations...valence electrons to the level of conducting electrons within metallic conductors (i.e., inducing electric currents), which is possible because there is no band gap, basically no energy difference between the two levels. The latter, however, might become interesting wherever electric currents might play a role, even in organisms (disturbance of nerve conduction, headaches arising from radiowaves...that kind of things). Electric currents, ultrasound and other kinds of low quantum energy waves have impact on living organisms (even though without causing mutations) and are thus applied in various kinds of medical treatments. Hence, I could imagine that the radio waves (maybe in combination with the sorage inside a strong magnetic field of the MRI) could exert some kind of stimulating effects in the seeds. Even though the plants might be genetically comparable to those from seeds which have been stored somewhere else, their metabolism might have been stimulated in a different manner. That means, even if you probably can´t see a difference with the grown up plants, it should be worthwhile to monitor their germination behavior (their first signs of life upon that interesting treatment) in direct comparison with seeds from that seed stock stored outside the MRI. There could be acceleration or maybe delay of germination.

12/13/2019 2:20:40 AM

Pumpking

Germany

...just to avoid confusion (because most parts of the previous lines dealt with electromagnetic waves), I had mentioned ultrasound as a low energy kind of waves. Please don´t try to find ultrasonic waves in the electromagnetic spectrum, it´s some kind of mechanical waves, not electromagnetic ones.

12/13/2019 2:29:55 AM

Pumpking

Germany

After a morning chat in the coffee break (talked to our NMR expert, and I couldn´t resist to mention the tomato seeds in the MRI) we thought that it would be even more interesting to grow the tomato plants inside the magnet tunnel and to compare their growth with plants in the same room outside the magnet.

Well, it might be tricky to occupy the machine for some weeks in order to study tomato plant growth, but I like the thought of having someone facing his/her MRI scan, and an assistant gives them a pot with a tomato plant while they get ready to be moved into the tunnel..."There you go, and here´s a plant and some soil." ;)

12/13/2019 4:41:18 AM

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